He said “show me the list”
I would have guessed most people would know what consists of a Genesect/Virizion deck since it only showed up three times in top 4 at Worlds.
But those lists were based on consistency not techs. Your list is a techy list. I’m starting to think you don’t have a list.
Were there consistent Vir/Gen lists at Worlds? Yep, sure.
Are they relevant to this discussion? Not really.
None of them played 2 copies of Team Flare Grunt, and you can’t just shove some non-draw tech Supporters into a deck without hurting consistency.
It is fair enough to say that seimetoad is not really a lock card it is a pressure card as you can still deal dmg to it and in most cases even w\o items deal a ohko, even if you tech 2 flare grunt they play 4 DCE, even if you play 4 flare grunt you lower consistency for your alternate matchups and ultimately have 4 dead cards in your deck for all of those matchups, there is ways to beat seismetoad, such as having the option to deal more dmg then it can.
Having tested out Seismitoad on PTCGO (I know, I know), besides the obvious VirGen, a stacked Mewtwo EX (or Yvetal EX) can wreck you if you have no counter to those. Doing 50 and then taking 80-100 is a bad trade off. Not a perfect counter, since the Seismitoad player has to get in a Mewtwo war to counter you, but then the lock is broken. I think these are reasonable, but not perfect counters to the Toad and obviously these, especially Mewtwo EX, can be thrown into many decks.
I feel more decks are less dependent on items at the moment. Items are mostly used to increase your damage right now. The most common items toad will lock that are not damage modifiers are: Switch, Rare Candy, Professor’s Letter, and Ultra Ball. For big basic decks, the only big card they would lose would be switch. Big Basic decks, ones with 2HKO attacks like Mewtwo/Yveltal/Lucario don’t need the damage modifier items to have a positive trade off against toad, and if the toad user switches into another pokemon, you get to use all your previously locked +damage items. Against such decks Toad needs OHKO counters and maybe a couple sleep flips.
If a deck absolutely NEEDS a counter to toad, it’s not going to beat it anyway. If a deck needs a little help to bump the favors, I like Mewtwo EX as it has use in plenty of other matchups.
Another cute tech is Promo Red Genesect. 30 base damage on a grass-type for a DCE with a flip to discard an energy is the farthest a DCE can go on any basic grass pokemon. Works well against Suicune too.
Team flare grunt can work too
Cobalion EX, one metal energy = discard DCE.
Mewtwo is the best counter, outside of a grass deck. Or a water deck with suicune.
And, with Plasma/BW klang (if in extended) it would really mess with the toad
That would be the same Toad that forces you to evolve Stage 2s manually and plays Garbodor?
true. overlooked that one
Abilities don’t do much of anything to seismetoad in general. Using an attack or supporter to discard DCE just gets countered by them playing a DCE next turn and again unless you plan on playing 4 cards to counter 1 matchup your other matchups tend to suck by comparison, if your emphasis is to use items to increase matchups they are dead weight now, so again, if you make your deck to deal more base dmg then seismetoad, which isn’t hard, you can possibly counter seismetoad, if you play EX’s to counter but deal less dmg, you ultimately lose because you cannot deal more dmg to seismetoad, therefore the best way to deal with seismetoad is to deal more base dmg then it can, which is not hard.
I feel like Seismitoad-EX doesn’t put out enough damage to be a big threat worth over-teching for. Situationally sure, being locked out of Items can get really annoying and being locked out of Abilities entirely shuts down certain decks. @yoyos is right when outputting base damage is concerned. 10 damage against Virizion-EX just makes for a lost matchup. Though the full 30 damage is done to Genesect, he can always Megalo Cannon and not have to discard and still take back to back knockouts.
Beartic FFI deals out 100 with Muscle Band against the Toad, and it also combats Landorus and Pyroar through natural weaknesses. Should Beartic FFI be the central card to use out of FFI as Pyroar was the central card to come from FLF?
[quote=“CyrusTyler, post:35, topic:2108”]
Beartic FFI deals out 100 with Muscle Band against the Toad[/quote]
I feel like you shouldn’t be factoring in Muscle Band against a Pokemon that Item Locks from the first attacking turn. You’re looking at a 3HKO at best . . . assuming they don’t switch or heal like they should.
I cannot stress how much I hateThe Toad, there arent many good ways to counter it and it kills stage 2 decks which I feel should be the heart and soul of the format. Our current effective counters would be Plasma Leafeon and shaymin EX. In the next set if it follows the current trend we should see an effective counter to the Toad. At this stage all we can do is pray.
I use Lysandre and escape rope repeatedly to counter toad. Don’t let him get into the active/don’t let him stay active.
Although, float sones and more than one powered up toad will just shut that down. Also, escape rope is an item, so how are you supposed to use it of the punch is being used?
That is how The Toad has destroyed the format.