"Round" - Seismitoad LTR, Meloetta-EX // NXD-on


#1

I’ve been trying to update a Round list for NXD-FLF to get it remotely playable in a League Challenge next weekend, and could use some advice. I know there’s a lot of threads on Round (including this one and this older one).

Here’s the list as it stands after multiple revisions:

Pokemon - 16
4-2-4 Seismitoad LTR
4 Meloetta EX LTR
1 Keldeo EX (to stop the Meloettas getting pulled forward)
1 Toxicroak EX (in case I need a wall to hide behind for a couple of turns to start the game)

Supporters - 32

4 Professor Sycamore
4 N
2 Skyla
1 Lysandre

2 Random Receiver
4 Ultra Ball
4 Rare Candy
4 Muscle Band
2 Float Stone
3 Hypnotoxic Layer

2 Virbank City Gym

Energy - 12
4 Water
4 Psychic
4 DCE

Trying to get five spots on the bench for Round (preferably 3 Seismitoads of course), and save the sixth spot for the “other” techincal advisor if I need one. I tried a 4-0-4 Seismitoad and 2-2 Garbador line this morning, and a 2-2 Exploud line, and neither of those really got going fast enough or really came into play.

Play testing is giving me painfully inconsistent starts and getting murdered by my daughter playing VirGen (most people in my league don’t play VirGen, so I’m not particularly worried). I have a feeling it’s just not very good … only when I get a superlative start and my opponent gets a poor start do I stand a chance of disrupting a Charboar or Blastoise enough to take a win away.

PS: Just noticed before posting that I’m missing my usual default Ace Spec (Computer Search), and I’m tempted to toss a Rare Candy for it. 4 Rare Candies might be important when you’re running 4-0-4 and a 2-2 Garbador line, but they’re even worse than what I had before.


#2

Good work on formulating a good Round deck list. I’ll contribute what I can.

Seismitoad’s Round hits for 30 times the number of Pokemon you have with the Round attack.
Assuming you want to OHKO opposing EX Pokemon, you need:

  • 6 Pokemon with Round, or

  • 5 Pokemon with Round plus Silver Bangle, or

  • 4 Pokemon with Round plus Silver Bangle and Hypnotoxic Laser/Virbank City

Regardless of which method you use, your attacks become weaker once your Seismitoad gets knocked out. That being said, it’s imperative that you are able to stream Seismitoads with a back up of Meloettas.

I don’t see how Toxicroak EX contributes to this objective at all. It’s a cool card and it sort-of has synergy with your already existing Virbank City. If VirGen is giving you trouble, Toxicroak EX makes that match up worse. As a side effect, anything on your bench that isn’t Meloetta or Seismitoad is reducing your damage. I would say remove it.

Keldeo EX is a much better fit than Toxicroak EX here. With the addition of float stone, it makes sure that Meloetta doesn’t stay up on the front lines. One question you have to ask yourself is “Does Meloetta get OHKO’d often?” because Keldeo might be redundant. It’s not difficult to KO a Meloetta with 110 HP mid-game for many decks. Once again, anything on your bench that isn’t a Round user is hurting your damage.

If Keldeo is on your bench, it means you automatically cap out at 5 Pokemon with Round. You absolutely need Silver Bangle in order to get the appropriate knock outs in this scenario. Alternatively, you can use Laserbank over Silver Bangle, but I think most would agree that Silver Bangle is the optimal choice (depending on your local meta game). Ultimately you have to decide if including any non-Round Pokemon is truly worth it at all.

As for Silver Bangle vs Muscle Band, you have to do the math to see if it works out for you.

  • 5 Pokemon with Round + Silver Bangle = 180

  • 5 Pokemon with Round + Muscle Band = 170

You could end up missing out on some critical knock outs. You may argue that Muscle Band will hit non-EX Pokemon, but what non-EX Pokemon has 170 HP anyway?

Including an Ace Spec is important. Computer Search is alright, but Dowsing Machine is very popular too. I don’t have an answer for that one, but include an Ace Spec regardless.

A change in your supporter line might help with more consistent starts. Something along the lines of this might help out:

  • 4 Professor Juniper/Sycamore
  • 4 N
  • 3 Skyla
  • 2 Colress

Let me know what you think. Keep up the good work.


#3

Okay, I dropped all of the other technical Pokemon to start with … and I am concentrating on getting an explosive start with Round.

I know I should be working the Skyla into the deck to pull the right things, and getting an Ace Spec in there is important … but I thought I’d go with a deck without those (in terms of Pokemon Solitaire) and see what generates the most explosive starts. The deck is (for simulation purposes) very very very one-sided and focused only on getting Seismitoads powered up and getting to 210 damage as quickly as possible.

Using a 4-4-4 Seismitoad, 4 Meloetta EX and a whole pile of draw supporters (4 Sycamore, 4 N, 4 Colress, 2 Random Receiver, 4 Evosoda, 4 Level Ball, 4 Muscle Band, 2 Float Stone, 4 Rare Candy, 4 Ultra Ball, 4 Energy Psychic, 4 Energy Double Colorless), I can get to 210 by Turn 5 45% of the time using a fairly simplistic greedy strategy.

On average (over 100000 trials), it does 0 damage Turn 1, 30 damage Turn 2, 97 damage Turn 3, 142 damage Turn 4, 168 damage by Turn 5.

Obviously, this one-sided deck isn’t going to work as a deck to play (since there’s a number of common threats I need to counteract or toss some caltrops in their way to slow them down), but choosing basic strategies for how to use Skyla and Computer Search / Dowsing Machine isn’t as straightforward as it seems, so I left them out for now. (Doing that properly … well, that’s another few days of work, and I’m almost out of time before Friday.)

I’m letting the metrics tell me which cards to drop to insert the Ace Spec and the Skylas … probably a Lysandre and an Escape Rope for desperation … my gut tells me that Sacred Ash will be really useful to get the Seismitoads back into play as quickly as possible.

I’ll post a full deck list and a trip report on Friday if I end up using it instead of my daughter’s VirGen (she desperately wants to play a Charizard on Friday … which frees up her good deck for me!) Now I have to find the time to finish my analysis of what to drop! And (gadzooks) I have zero Level Balls available to me (my daughter and I only started playing seriously when XY came out, so I’m pretty light on cards from the 2012 sets).


#4

I’m not sure why you’re still refraining from using an ace spec. Is it because you don’t have any copies of a good ace spec trainer?

Computer Search is a “take anything from your deck” card. It’s clear you understand this concept because you’re using 4 Ultra Balls. You could easily drop it to 3 Ultra Balls and have one Computer Search, which is effectively the same thing with a bonus.

Dowsing Machine should be self explanatory. It’s the 5th Juniper, the 3rd float stone, the 5th rare candy.

Your trials make sense on paper but 100,000 actual games will end up completely different than 100,000 computerized trials. Different cards get drawn, part of your deck gets prized and Pokemon is dragged down by numerous coin flips.

How many times have you been stuck without a rare candy for a critical moment in the game? What about fishing for that last Ultra Ball to bench a much-needed Meloetta? It’s those moments when you get stuck and need a specific trainer that Skyla really shines. If you’re waiting two or three turns to hopefully draw in to what you need, you’ve already lost. If you have the lead and don’t need to spend the turn using a draw supporter, you can Skyla for the next Skyla in your deck so that you don’t unnecessarily draw it.


#5

Sorry, I didn’t finish all of my thoughts before I got pulled away by my daughter for various chores. :smile:

The computerized trials does include randomized prizing of 6 cards, but don’t include the critical damage being done to disrupt the setup.

The computerized trials are just to finetune what makes sense to stoke the engine. And what makes sense for the beginning of the game clearly doesn’t make a lot of sense for the end of the game. Skyla and Dowsing Machine aren’t there was that I couldn’t quickly “handtune” an AI for picking the right trainer or discard to ensure an explosive start to the game … so I need to make room for them.

What I’ve spent the evening doing is removing cards from that list that do not adversely affect how quickly the deck can be set up. For example, taking out one Palpitoad for an “other card” does as much damage as removing all four Rare Candies, a Muscle Band and a Evosoda to how fast the deck gets started. This wasn’t apparently obvious to me without running the trials. 4-4-4 seems somewhat over the top, but curiously important for as powerful a start as possible.

That’s not to say that the Rare Candies wouldn’t be useful to accelerate up a third or fourth Seismitoad, but when there’s already a Seismitoad on the bench, you only need to get to Palpitoad to have it contribute to the engine, which can get there by Evosoda, Level Ball or through old-fashioned draws, and you can use the Ultra Balls to fetch Meloetta EX in a pinch. It makes sense that the utility of Rare Candy for generating Seismitoads is undervalued when I have 12 ways of getting to a Palpitoad already.

So now that I have six “other” card slots (as determined by how well they do not contribute to the speed with which I can get set up), I can concentrate on end-game cards and recyclers, or more specialized pickers. I was thinking that I needed to clear the way for 9 cards: Skyla x 2, Lysandre x 2, Startling Megaphone, Pal Pad, Sacred Ash x 2, Dowsing Machine. All of these cards go well with this deck. Lysandre to pick off the energy accelerators, Startling Megaphone to shoo away those darn Tool cards, Pal Pad and Sacred Ash to hopefully land the late-game cards that I need, and Dowsing Machine to pick the card that I need.

I’m highly confident I will be kicking myself at least once for not enough energy … and having three of those six cards as Psychic Energy cards reduces the likelihood of Turn 3 blanks (by having not enough energy to place on a front-line Seismitoad, or not enough energy to retreat the poorly-drawn frontline Meloetta) seems to encourage a little more consistency by T2 and T3 (reducing the number of times you’re still “out” of energy).

I am getting to where you want me to be with the full list … it’s just the analytics and trials that I need to get me there! Honest! :wink:


#6

This is the list I play test against the decks (tomorrow) to see how it plays … let’s see if I can punch above my own weight class with this one!

Pokemon - 16
4-4-4 Seismitoad LTR
4 Meloetta EX LTR

Supporters - 34

4 Professor Sycamore
4 N
4 Colress
2 Skyla
2 Lysandre

4 Level Ball
3 Silver Bangle / Muscle Band
3 Ultra Ball
2 Random Receiver
2 Sacred Ash
1 Evosoda
1 Startling Megaphone
1 Pal Pad
1 Dowsing Machine (Ace Spec)

Energy - 10
6 Psychic
4 DCE

The controversial exclusion is Rare Candy.  If the metric was getting the number of Seismitoads set up as early as possible (i.e. minimize the number of turns it takes to have 3 Seismitoads running with enough energy to attack), the evaluation would be different.  And it may be a different important metric to measure, but each rare Candy only contributes an additional 0.05 Seismitoads by T5 (1.46 versus 1.66). Once you lose the first attacker, the second one has to be ready … or you’re tossing a Meloetta-EX forward to bide for another turn.


#7

@WolfusMandrago The play testing with the list given above went poorly, as you can imagine, against my daughter. She’s playing @MDiaz1 's Virizion/Genesect/Floette list that he posted last week (with just a few exceptions due to cards we’re missing). The Round deck list I posted is still prone to some bad starts. There isn’t much you can do against a T2 Emerald Slash against a Palpitoad! The final game of three was relatively close, but it was a horrible start for her (couldn’t get an Emerald Slash in until Turn 5, and was down to two prize cards quickly). The two Floettes saved her Genesect from a OHKO, since it had 210 HP, and I could only throw 180. :frowning: She whacked both Seismitoads, and the other two had no Energy on them nor were they evolved enough to attack. Once she got through the hard shell, it was a little squishy on the inside.

I’ll think about this some more … but I’m probably not going to try it out at the League Challenge. My daughter wants to play Blastoise, so I’ll let her do that and take her Vir/Gen deck. :slight_smile:


#8

Grass weakness is really gonna hurt you. Have you played any other decks?

I’ll give you props for all the work you’ve done with the deck. It’s very thorough. The Round deck concept on it’s own needs that little extra oomph to push it to a level where it’s more competitive. Maybe that will happen with the next expansion, or maybe we’ve all missed a card somewhere.


#9

@WolfusMandrago, it’s been a month, and I haven’t responded to your query!

Over the last few weeks, I’ve tested it against Yveltal variants, Blastoise, and Michael Pramawat’s Pyroar decklist … and variants of the Round list been torn apart by all of them. It’s not a very consistent list … so I tried adding Rare Candies instead of Level Balls/Palpitoads (in spite of what the metrics told me) and retested. That went just as poorly. Swapping a 2-0-2 Exploud line didn’t work either … the only time I have registered a win against any good deck was when I had an epicly bad first four rounds with an Yveltal deck.

I think I have a very good appreciation for how it plays and what it may need … here’s to hoping that we’ll see something in Rising Fist or one of the subsequent releases!


#10

When I get a second I will post my list that has been working for me.