Jirachi XY67 looks capable of keeping Giratina-EX and Vespiquen AOR 10 at bay. Critiques are appreciated.
There lots to like about the list, but a major concern is the lack of consistent search. If you need that Jirachi, you are really struggling to get it out: Korrina for the single Ultra Ball could leave you topdecking. Same goes for Bunnelby and (to a slightly lesser extent) Wobbuffet.
At minimum, I’d cut a Lysandre for a second Ultra Ball.
I hear what you are saying, but on this side of Cities, I’m thinking “If I can’t beat Tyrantrum / Bronzong, I’m not sleeving it up.” And Dragon Impact renders Jirachi irrelevant. If the Wobbuffets can keep the Tyrantrum engine at bay, I’d say this deck is a winner.
For whatever it’s worth, I’d cut the Birch before the second Lysandre for another Ultra Ball.
I’d run a 3rd Silent Lab, or even a Parallel City or two. And quite possibly one of those XY Promo Celebis.
I’ll probably try this for Cities, but it’s absolutely unplayable without Hex Maniac. It’s the only way you can beat Giratina, and that’ll be huge in Standard.
Definitely not the ONLY way, if you can manage your Silent Labs/attachments well. However, I will agree that it is a poor matchup.
That’s what the Jirachi is for. Giratina can’t touch Jirachi.
Giratina himself cannot touch Jirachi so long as the effect still lies on Jirachi. However, Escape Rope+Lysandre kills Jirachi quite easily, as well as alternate attackers IN Giratina be they even Shaymin-EX (Sky Return+Muscle Band+Sky Return kills). Also, Giratina is still locking you from your stadiums and special energy, and when going Jirachi, it prevents you from pursuing your “Set up a PGroudon and smash face” strategy.
Jirachi is immune to damage while it is active. The best function of Jirachi is that it discards special energy. The average ToadTina deck only runs special energy. So Jirachi is a stall Pokémon to get rid of your opponent’s energy until Groudon comes in to smash face.
Jirachi can also be good in the Groudon mirror.
The problem is that you’ll only get 0-1 Silent Lab out before they Stadium Lock you. I’m not sure why I said “absolutely unplayable” but I don’t find Giratina matchups very winnable without it. You have to Lysandre 2 Shaymin and kill another EX to win.
As for Jirachi, every deck that plays Giratina/other special energy reliant attackers runs an alternate attacker that doesn’t need special energy, so it’s a one or two turn stall at best.
Thanks for your opinion on Hex Maniac, a card I found potentially helpful but eventually dropped due to deck space and existing ways to cope with Giratina-EX. Which card in my original list do you think should make way for Hex Maniac?
Tina’s Stadium Lock is contingent upon attacking, which it find tough when its Special Energy gets discarded. If Groudon is also running Xerosic, that goes double.
Alt attackers are fine, but they still involve committing resources to taking a single Prize. The Rope/Lysandre combo likewise. Using Shaymin to draw into this stuff makes life a lot more simple for Groudon too.
Jirachi definitely won’t autowin vs Tina, but it can sure be used to make life very difficult unless they have a very quick answer. The discard is really awkward and puts a lot of pressure on the Tina player to burn resources.
Maybe one copy of battle compressor perhaps instead of the second copy of Lysandre or the super rod? Idk, battle compressor normally finds its way into speedy decks, but I feel it could be useful in here to be easily searched with korrina and being able to dicard 1-2 energies to maximize mega turbo efficiency as well as discarding a tech supporter.
I’ve been interested in running this deck for a long time as I happened to pull 2 FA P-Groudon EX (No idea how that’s even possible) and I think Groudon is pretty badass in general. I had a couple of questions
I understand the idea of trying to disrupt your opponent since this deck is fairly slow, but are a Judge and a Xerosic really contributing enough to that end to be worth the spot in the deck? As others have pointed out, this deck could already run into a topdeck situation fairly often without a strong draw engine, wouldn’t it be better to have 2 cards that help you advance your plan in those slots?
Is 3-3 P-Groudon really necessary? I’m partly asking this because I’m a cheapskate and don’t want to splurge out $20 dollars on the last P-Groudon, but it feels like you’d never be able to set up a 3rd P-Groudon in a million years, so any extra copies would be to avoid having it prized. However, I feel that if you got 1 P-Groudon set up and don’t succesfully get into your prizes to get that 2nd one (probably because the opponent disrupted your strategy through Giratina, Vileplume, etc) then you’re quite probably SOL already anyway. Wouldn’t a 3-2 line work just the same?
As others have pointed out again, the deck seems to be very low on draw support and searching for cards. The only ways to get Groudon out with that list are through the single Ultra Ball, through the 4 Korrinas (and if you’re not running a Battle Compressor it might be difficult to get her out in time), Sycamore/Birch or topdecking into it. Wouldn’t Scorched Earth be really good in this deck, as it synergizes with Mega Turbo and gives you a good chunk of extra consistency at virtually no drawback? I get that it’d be problematic against Giratina but against everything else I feel that it could be a good addition.
Is Regirock really that good that you’d run him along with Bunnelby? Bunnelby can do the exact same thing as Regirock but has a little less HP and can be Lysandred out for the last prize.
Some smaller concerns:
I see most lists nowadays run 0 Groudon Spirit Link. Isn’t it good to include at least one copy for those surprise KO’s? Sash is amazing for Vespiquen obviously but I’m not quite sure if I’d prefer running a Float Stone over the potential to OHKO something out of the blue, especially as mega evolving without a spirit link could mean that you’re giving the opponent a 2nd free prize and thus not getting him into the 7 prizes situation.
What does Pokemon Center Lady actually do in this deck? I mean I understood the inclusion back when Lasers were standard-legal but are there even any Pokemon that inflict status effects other than maybe Articuno in M-Manectric? I’m legitimately curious, since I haven’t kept up with the meta in a long time, or is it for the purpose of healing off damage to get Focus Sash into effect again?
Finally with 4 VS Seeker isn’t running 2 Lysandre a bit much? He’s obviously extremely useful but I feel that with 4 VS Seeker you’d have him as often as you’d ever need him. If you were to run a Battle Compressor in that slot you could get more than 1 useful supporter out of that, too.
Sorry for the long wall of text but I was really happy to see a thread about this deck since most other threads on the deck are very old, so I thought I’d ask all of the questions I had.
Regirock has barrier, can attach focus sash to it, gives one prize and can do damage. Bunnelby is just good for recycling stuff lke lysandre you need to opdeck and can get back energies too.
That’s fair enough. Since I can’t see a situation where you’d actually attach 4 energies to Regirock for him to attack, I thought that his role is pretty much the same as Bunnelby’s, with the added perk of having barrier and extra HP. I suppose being able to attach Focus Sash to it is really good, but isn’t it a pretty big drawback that it can only get you stadiums?
Edit: Another thought that I had was, why is this deck running 2x Fighting Stadium? Unless you get to attack with Regirock, which is very unlikely, then there is only a handful of (playable) cards that P-Groudon + Strong Energy doesn’t OHKO: Wailord EX, M-Aggron, M-Mewtwo X, M-Rayquaza (Dragon), P-Kyogre and opposing P-Groudon. If any of those are of concern to the deck wouldn’t 1x Fighting Stadium at best be enough? I think Fighting Stadium would be much more useful in a version running Landorus-FUF and Hawlucha-FUF.
You forgot colorless mega ray.
I’ve never had a problem getting out Groudon, but Scorched Earth is a very interesting idea.
Regirock is a Regice and Vespiquen counter.
Another interesting idea, but my first thought is that the surprise KO’s will be very hard to pull off and not very valuable.
It was never there for Laser, Groudon’s Trait blocked that anyways. Center Lady is more for when your opponent is going for good math to KO a Groudon. They hit you for 120-140, you Center Lady, suddenly their 2HKO is a 3HKO.
A lot of the time VS Seeker can be one of your most valuable resources, so extra supporter counts are always nice. 2nd Lysandre isn’t mandatory if you want to add it in another spot.
As Jirachi said, Mega Ray and the mirror are the biggest ones, but it’s partially just because you want another Stadium. I never really thought about the inclusion of that card, though. Maybe more Silent Lab is better.
Thanks for the input guys.
Ah, that’s true, I forgot it resists fighting. Is it really worth it running 2 Fighting Stadium to deal with just M-Ray though? In the mirror match-up it benefits the enemy player as much as it benefits you so I’m not sure how highly I value this stadium on a Pokemon that already does 200 damage.
I think so too, at least over one of the Fighting Stadium.
Huh, that figures, I guess it shows that I haven’t kept up with the meta. How exactly does that work though, how do you power up another 4-energy attacker on top of Groudon? Or do you forego attacking with Groudon altogether? I’m not quite sure how that’d work. I mean it sucks that you go 2-for-2 at best against Vespiqueen but how does a 2-for-1 on Regirock help you?
Derp, I knew I was forgetting something, then I realized why P-Groudon was so strong against the Toad meta. That does make sense though I still think Pokemon Center Lady feels a bit… clutch, if not downright clunky, but if the deck’s consistency is good enough (have yet to try it) then I guess it works!
[quote]As Jirachi said, Mega Ray and the mirror are the biggest ones, but it’s partially just because you want another Stadium. I never really thought about the inclusion of that card, though. Maybe more Silent Lab is better.
Has the meta really changed that much? When P-Groudon first came around every list that I made ran 2 Scorched Earth and 2 Silent Lab minimum for the stadiums, now these sound like interesting deck choices. I would have thought that with Mega Turbo, getting energy into your discard and drawing at the same time would have been real big!