Phantom Forces [ENG] // Phantom Gate XY4 [JPN]

It was the 170 part I really was getting at. I’m used to the term “donk” being abused.

I can follow 120+Band+Laser=150, but really not 170.

170 was what some one in Virbank said. Unless you get a Virbank out, you are right only 150.

Yeah, which unfortunately doesn’t work with Miasma Valley or whatever the heck they call that thing.

further question: does jamming net apply before or after weakness/resistance?

It says it right on the card:
The Pokémon this card is attached to does 20 less damage to the Defending Pokémon (before applying Weakness and Resistance).

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What about a Yveltal EX deck with shadow circle? No more weakness and Yveltal loves energy acceleration.

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im not saying its unplayable, just that it’s weakness really hurts. Landorus could potentially oneshot it for one energy (with lasers). To be honest though that deck you mentioned does sound fun and I might have to try it when the time comes

[quote=“baby_mario, post:272, topic:1945”]
You had to Juniper away a bunch of Supporters.[/quote]
This happens all the time. It’s called bad luck. If anything, mitigating bad luck makes the game more skillful.

This is a legitimate concern for making the format less skillful, but how often is that a problem in the competitive scene?

Your opponent probably has similar resources in the discard, unless they had a bad start.

That happens occasionally. Bad luck. Is it skillful to win because your opponent drew poorly? No.

Rookie mistake. In that sense, yes it is a crutch. However, if someone makes that level of a mistake, they will probably misplay enough that LLR won’t make a difference. You also probably won’t see this in competitive play.

Using Sableye was considered skillful, so don’t even go there.

Then let him deck out. Playing LLR in that situation would be a bad play. If anything, this is an argument for N being a bad card.

I don’t like the card because I think it is a bad card. The downside makes it extremely situational as to when it is beneficial to play. I don’t get this, “It’s going to make the game less skillful” nonsense when we had/have cards like Super Rod, Sableye, Energy Retrieval, SER, Sacred Ash, etc. which do the same thing arguably better (since your opponent doesn’t get to do the same thing and you don’t have to shuffle in stuff you don’t want)

I’m pretty sure this card will join the long list of bad supporters we already have, unless there is some amazing mill deck coming.

P.S. I hope I didn’t come across as being hostile.

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No, but I do think you misunderstood the point of my post, which was to reply to this

[quote=“pokemonguy, post:271, topic:1945”]
there is no point in running LLR[/quote]

Vilify and Ho-oh players are crying everywhere

[quote=“Phoenix15, post:300, topic:1945, full:true”]
Vilify and Ho-oh players are crying everywhere[/quote]

Really? All 3 of them?

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Exactly. I am glad you understand.

Obviously I am not @baby_mario but since I share similar concerns I’ll take a crack and answering @thflame.

Edit: Since I took so long typing this out… baby_mario already replied.

[quote=“thflame, post:298, topic:1945, full:true”]P.S. I hope I didn’t come across as being hostile.
[/quote]

Glad you added that in; I read it as being hostile, but that could just be me. I also will try to avoid sounding hostile or condescending.

[quote=“thflame, post:298, topic:1945, full:true”]baby_mario said:
You had to Juniper away a bunch of Supporters.

This happens all the time. It’s called bad luck. If anything, mitigating bad luck makes the game more skillful.[/quote]

Except the risk of discarding good cards is part of the balancing factor of Professor Juniper and Professor Sycamore. I don’t claim it is a good balancing factor (quite the opposite with the current card pool), but indeed Lysandre’s Last Restort significantly diminishes this problem… and while it saves you from truly “bad luck” situations, it also saves you from “making the wrong play” situations e.g. allows you to get by with less skill.

[quote=“thflame, post:298, topic:1945, full:true”]baby_mario said:
You invested too many DCE on a Mewtwo, it got KO’d and now you have run out.

This is a legitimate concern for making the format less skillful, but how often is that a problem in the competitive scene?[/quote]

Obviously I can’t answer this as I am not part of the competitive scene, but I can tell you in the “whomever I end of facing on the PTCGO scene”, its happening pretty often. I very loose estimate off the top of my head would be somewhere between one in ten games and one in five. Granted, I am factoring in having a single DCE on it as well; this ties into being less afraid to commit a DCE to something before hand.

[quote=“thflame, post:298, topic:1945, full:true”]baby_mario said:
You have 4 Roller Skates in your discard.

Your opponent probably has similar resources in the discard, unless they had a bad start.[/quote]

Roller Skates is not really a general play; while it can work in anything, it tends to be reserved for decks that have some synergy with it. With Lysandre’s Last Resort, you can get a second shot with any copies in the discard pile, which means more chances to make it pay off. Sure, you might whiff on all of them (even playing them twice), but the odds of that are quite, quite low.

[quote=“thflame, post:298, topic:1945, full:true”]baby_mario said:
You were forced to Ultra Ball away your ACE SPEC to avoid getting Benched

That happens occasionally. Bad luck. Is it skillful to win because your opponent drew poorly? No.[/quote]

Part of the intentional balancing factor of the Ace Spec (not that it is all that successful imo) is that you only get one copy and you may be forced to discard it instead of using it, or use it prematurely for less than significant effects (like using Scramble Switch as simply a Switch). No matter what reason it hit the discard, you’ll get a second shot at your Ace Spec. So will your opponent… if his is already in the discard.

[quote=“thflame, post:298, topic:1945, full:true”]baby_mario said:
You attached all your Muscle Band and your opponent played Megaphone

Rookie mistake. In that sense, yes it is a crutch. However, if someone makes that level of a mistake, they will probably misplay enough that LLR won’t make a difference. You also probably won’t see this in competitive play.[/quote]

With Lysandre’s Last Restort it will not just be a rookie mistake; vet’s can do the same trick with minimal consequence. Misplays won’t be misplays; they might be solid tactics or they might be bold, risky plays… but they won’t be misplays.

[quote=“thflame, post:298, topic:1945, full:true”]baby_mario said:
You burned through your Lasers too early

Using Sableye was considered skillful, so don’t even go there.[/quote]

  1. Not everyone considered Sableye sufficiently “skillful”; people that considered Sableye overpowered aren’t going to accept that counterargument.

  2. Sableye was a small Basic Pokémon that required an Energy to attack to allow you to add two Items to hand; this is a Supporter that shoves everything in both player’s discard piles back into their respective decks. As such, even if one is balanced the other is not necessarily so.

[quote=“thflame, post:298, topic:1945, full:true”]baby_mario said:
You need to N your opponent at some point because they have taken a Prize lead, but he has a nice thin deck with multiple Juniper and Colress

Then let him deck out. Playing LLR in that situation would be a bad play. If anything, this is an argument for N being a bad card.[/quote]

You’re assuming he’ll deck out. In this case, the example was pointing out how someone that has pretty much earned a win has to worry about an opponent sabotaging them by this combo. I do consider it a weak example, as we are talking about a two-Supporter combo.

N is a bad card, not in the "this is terrible and no one should play it, but in the “this is so broken” kind of manner. While not infinitely overpowered, the fact that it ended up being one of the best sources of draw power in the game plus disruption (early game) and as it becomes worse draw power it becomes better disruption… all based on the oft misleading Prize count.

This is where you really sounded like you were hostile. “Nonsense” is generally not the polite way to categorize your opponent’s arguments. As stated, they are not nonsense; breaking this down into a binary argument is misleading.

A basic premise I subscribe to is that any card can be made balanced or broken with the proper card pool and rules. In some cases it requires a ludicrous amount of effort (and fictional cards) to break something, but it can be done. You are concluding that because some resource replenishing cards have been considered fair/skillful, that all must be fair/skillful. Even if the cards were all identical, the specifics of the format could result in one having been “broken”, another “balanced”, and yet another “under powered”.

You also seem to have some effects wrong; Sacred Ash requires you shuffle in as many cards as you can if you have less than five cards. This is a limitation, and it has caused me problems already. I believe Energy Retrieval is the same way.

Doing the same thing to both players also does not guaranteed balance. If Lysandre’s Last Resort was instead “Each player may take three Prizes.” that wouldn’t make it fair or balanced. Faster decks (especially Lugia-EX decks) would disproportionately benefit from it… and the question would be if the difference was significant enough to be unbalancing.

Also, SER doesn’t retrieve Energy, it has you discard an Energy attached to one of your Pokémon so that you can discard up to two Energy cards from the opponent’s Pokémon of your choice. :wink: Yeah, yeah Super Energy Removal hasn’t been Standard Legal since the original Modified, but that is what it means; why make it potentially confusing for long time/returning players while also making it potentially confusing for new players researching older decks.

Possibly. Note that a card not being used doesn’t make it balanced; it is a funny thing that goes back to that whole “a format can make a card balanced or broken” thing. Just conceive of a clearly broken card as an Ace Spec. Now think of an even better one; congrats, if they exist in the same format the better one will always see play unless a person doesn’t own it, while the still broken first one will see almost none.

By existing, there is an instant, near perfect counter to mill decks in the form of an easy to run Supporter. I think its definitely worth a slot (along with Vs Seeker). I find decking out to be a real risk… in fact I was hoping we’d get something like “Your opponent discards his or her hand and draws seven cards.” as a Supporter to help counteract the potent draw power we already have by making decking out a lot easier. With the way most decks run currently, a single TecH copy would likely be a staple of that fictional card. A single Lysandre’s Last Resort alongside at least one Vs Seeker (and I expect people to run as many of the latter as they can squeeze into the deck) means you have to have real bad luck to deck out ever, even while playing recklessly.

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Wow. That was very long. I agree with the Sableye comment.

Of course its long… its otaku. XD

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Are you the same Otaku from Pojo? If so, I really enjoy your thorough card reviews.

Not to stray too far off topic, but I wonder how Broken Time Space was received by the TCG community? That’s the last time I could think of where a major game-breaking card was released. I wasn’t keeping up with the game in 2009, so I’m unaware of the discussions behind that card.

There was a lot of obvious puns on the card name, that’s for sure.

As far as I recall, the major concern with BTS was the way it could lead to donks via Machamp or Kingdra. Aside from that it was more or less accepted as it kept Evo decks competitive with all the SP stuff.

It’s a very dangerous card though. If you put it into some of our more recent formats, it would have been absolutely devastating (especially under the first set of BLW rules).

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I really did not like Broken Time-Space however I was barely paying attention during most of the formats where it was legal (real life just got in my way). As I may have mentioned over in the TCG Design Thread I think that it doesn’t fix a problem properly, it just provides a “patch” that tends to break down over time. I would rather slow down the pace of the first few turns so that players had time to Evolve rather than speed up Evolutions.

Similar to what was said about Eels and Zong, I think the same applies to Ho-Oh EX because of Battle Compressor. After an LLR, just one trainer can give you a coin flip for a Ho-Oh EX with 2 energy. That same trainer can also put 3 Exeggcute in the discard for Weavile. The Team Flare Whistle looks much more devastating towards these cards.

^then may team flare’s whistle ensure you a single matchup.

I agree with BM where the whole type thing is concerned I turn the other cheek and ignore them only mentioning attacks and what they do along the way, show engines, show types of cards why they are played so hopefully one day they see it’s not about type its about what the deck does together.

If in the fact of offering a card like LLR could be on the positive one of many things, first this is a card that threatens our format, but at the same time gets us to think outside of the box in terms of strategy in being able to see how flexible we are as players, If this card is played well enough it could destroy a lot of good players or it could make them stronger, time will tell.

Cards like jamming net and head noiser seem to be reminiscent of magic the gathering, same as LLR with yugioh, cards that offer odd effects, this could be pokemons way of seeing how these strategies are dealt with in pokemon, will they be picked up by odd players (I can think of 1 player in my area that would play these cards w/o hesitation), but will it be enough to make them these players good enough to win?

There is no doubt in my mind that LLR offers a change to the format if played correctly, but is also insanely stupid.

If our format is heading towards megas, pyroar and klink being the big decks over the next year after this year is done, and derpy cards like these are being printed, what about the next few sets?

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