Landorus-EX Variants // BCR-on

Is this supposed to be one of those times where someone mimics another to show how irritating the person being mimicked can be? I mean, I know I get hung up on theory or game history or semantics far too often.

The comment about building a deck with 53 supporters was pretty clearly not about building a viable, competitive deck, just what you would have to do in order to make sure your opening hand never lacked a Supporter. The rest of your post feels disconnected from reality. The statements are not untrue but are in no way an actual “answer” to what is being discussed. “Just the right amount…” is not a real answer. While I was not seriously advocating for a 53 Supporter deck, the more non-Supporter cards you run, the more potential dead hands, adjusted for when tricks like Random Receiver or Jirachi-EX work.

One of the current concerns is indeed those tricks not working. Seismitoad-EX means all your Items are dead draws while Quaking Punch is in effect. Garbodor, whether run alongside Seismitoad-EX or on its own prevents tricks like Jirachi-EX or even the expected benefits of Ability based draw power.

“Big Basics” is one deck. You keep assuming you know what I’m playing when you don’t. Even if you’ve figured out how to make it work for your exact deck, that doesn’t mean the principles apply universally and it does not mean that players aren’t already doing exactly what you say and are still having unfavorable results. I have no idea why cheating pops up… oh is it another example of not getting my point earlier about “guaranteeing” a Supporter all the time? Again that wasn’t a suggestion for how to play, just what one would have to do to truly eliminate all risk of failing to have a Supporter available!

Also… 53 Supporters means you cannot fail to open with a Supporter, unless your opponent goes first and hits you with a Red Card or similar effect. Based just on your natural opening draw, you’ll get a seven card opening hand plus a single card opening draw, for a total of eight cards from your deck. It doesn’t even matter if all six of your Prizes are Supporters.

What I’m talking about is simple deck thinning, fighting variants such as landorus have a fairly simple and universal strategy which allows for deck thinning to be introduced much more efficiently (that and the years of tournament testing). Having the right amount of ultra ball, 4 juniper 4 N etc does actually go very fair at ensuring game after game consistency and allowing more then just supporters to shoulder the burden of the whole deck when the whole deck should work.

I remember back in 2013 before worlds, I took all of my supporters out of TDK and played against darkrai, that was a very hard matchup but I won by 2 prizes, I did this a lot, I won and lost a lot of times, but having the knowledge oh knowing how the deck works w/o supporters helps you understand how to make your supporters work for you better I found. And yes the principles do apply universally if you apply them correctly, like anything it’s just a simple strategy to ensure consistency, the basis is having a large understanding on card amounts in your deck to you know what you have to work with.

Is it hard to agree with someone when doing so got you a tournament win? No, So why do I have to get flac and name calling for agreeing with someone?

This comment leads me to ask… with whom were you agreeing? You were disagreeing with me (…actually that is probably a sound policy) as well as baby_mario and KPiplup. If you mean your response to stmlacek1, that wasn’t the comment to which my response was supposed to be attached. I still have trouble navigating the bbs, but on my end it shows up both attached to your comment prior to that one, as well as at the end.

Apart from all that… I want to thank you for this:

[quote=“yoyos, post:102, topic:1477”]What I’m talking about is simple deck thinning, fighting variants such as landorus have a fairly simple and universal strategy which allows for deck thinning to be introduced much more efficiently (that and the years of tournament testing). Having the right amount of ultra ball, 4 juniper 4 N etc does actually go very fair at ensuring game after game consistency and allowing more then just supporters to shoulder the burden of the whole deck when the whole deck should work.

I remember back in 2013 before worlds, I took all of my supporters out of TDK and played against darkrai, that was a very hard matchup but I won by 2 prizes, I did this a lot, I won and lost a lot of times, but having the knowledge oh knowing how the deck works w/o supporters helps you understand how to make your supporters work for you better I found. And yes the principles do apply universally if you apply them correctly, like anything it’s just a simple strategy to ensure consistency, the basis is having a large understanding on card amounts in your deck to you know what you have to work with.[/quote]

Again, I still believe you’re neither giving me nor statistics enough credit, but this time you wrote clearly. I am sorry if that sounds condescending; feel free to attribute it to me just not being smart enough to understand your other posts, but this time I could understand what you were saying and follow the principles you presented much easier, instead of feeling like I had to wrestle with and then beat into submission your message in order to gleam any meaning (a feeling I am sure many share towards my own overly long diatribes).

Again, I am well aware of these principles and I do at least attempt to practice them. That doesn’t change the reality of bad draws happening. You can’t thin your deck before your opening draw. Sometimes you’re stuck in a bad situation with no Supporters opening turn. Sometimes you open with three Professor Juniper or Professor Sycamore and just one Pokémon and your opponent more than likely going to KO said Pokémon on the next turn, so unless you toss two extra Supporters (let alone anything else of value that cannot yet be played), you’re going to lose anyway (and the circumstances are such that a quick loss is not preferable to a long, drawn out struggle).

First off I was more just disagreeing with you, piplup and Mario idk.

Could just be me, but I talk to a lot of people about this game in open hypotheticals where we never fully explain it only the basic concept of it because it’s like we are testing eachother weather or not we understand it or not, because in truth a lot of the strategy in this game is based around not actually giving your opponent an inch in edge wise.

Just building your deck for consistency is better then not, I find that turn 1 3 juniper in hand is a bit less likely I find from myself, testing, league and online, majorly online, It is a higher chance to be N’d into a hand for 3 juniper then start with a hand of 3 juniper, though it can happen but it’s likely to always be 1 pokemon, energy, stuff you need, juniper. I find even more so that this could be more of a test to my area and less to the people I test with online but people don’t actually get everything they need at the start of the game to take the ohko, though your right it can happen. But at the same time this is where the rest of the engine has to basically pick up where those 3 juniper left off and have the ability to still play the same way, granted you almost have to forget that there discarded so you don’t worry about what you lose.

I was at an LC about 6+ months ago and I borrowed a friend and team mate at the time, idk what happened to him currently, his big basics garbo list, it was a 3 round LC and we were both battling it out for first place at respectable 2-0 records. Game one was so abysmal on my side I forgot, but game 2 was super rod 4 fighting energy, raichu and landorus, juniper, attaché the fighting energy discard hand then I ask him, how many super rod do you play, 1, do you play compu search or dowsing, compu, I whiffed energy hard because he only played 5 basic fighting and 4 DCE, ultimately at the time a loss was no real concern, but if it wasn’t I’m pretty certain I wouldn’t have also milled all of the raichu out of the deck as well that game.

Anyone have any ideas for techs against Virizion/Genesect? I failed miserably against my dad last night and I was just wondering about ways to beat it. I’ve tried spirtomb…don’t like it. I was thinking M-Lucario, but I need some suggestions. Thanks! :smile:

I find reshiam is a strong fire card you can have it attack for 2 colorless enegery

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Reshiram doesn’t sound to good against Virizion/Genesect. They can just Red Signal around it or use Beartic to KO the Reshiram.

what would be a good tech to use in this match up in your opinion then

I’m honestly not to sure with what’s the best tech for the match up as I haven’t tested it much, but a thick Garbodor line or a Spiritomb +2 Megaphone seems like it would be good to even the matchup. Reshiram usually won’t work in a enough circumstances, so I’d go for cards that can help in other matchups too.

This how I would win the matchup, round 1 I go first mewtwo active, bench lando and trubbish, attaché a fighting to lando pass, attach grass to virizion pass, evolve trubbish (no tool yet), muscle band, DCE mewtwo 80 dmg, next turn, second lando fighing energy (so 2 landy 2 fighting energy, basic preferred, the best bluff is one your opponent can half see happening) tool to trubbish, ko virizion for 100. He plays into genesect he has 2 options ko the mewtwo EX or megaphone, red signal lando, either way I still deliver on the KO, either way I still attach fighting/strong energy, muscle band, laser/bank 170+ dmg or I attaché another DCE to mewtwo e. switch laser/bank OHKO, after that you pretty much won because you cleared there board of energy and you setup faster and deal more dmg back then they can. This is not a hard matchup, this is a technical one, the deck can give options to making things like this affordable turn after turn, it is up to you to find which way to make it happen, consistency is key.

That’s like the BEST case scenario. I mean opening hand, Mewtwo, Lando, Trubbish, energy, draw supporter. OK right.

Then the VirGen player red signals your Landy T2, you hammer head, he slashes, you land judge for KO, he return KO’s Landy. It’s not as cherry picked as you make it sound to be.

I thought your point was that it was a blatantly cherry picked scenario; a great opening hand and an opponent that more or less plays into it.

Anyway, Reshiram is an option. Is it a strong option? Depends on your deck; if you just need the edge that throwing up a Reshiram at the correct moment can grant, it really can do the job. Without any damage but with a Silver Bangle, Reshiram scores 100 damage (after Weakness, of course). If your opponent burns enough resources to “deal” with Reshiram, then it is still helping you.

If your deck can’t power up at least Outrage in a single turn, can’t supplement Outrage’s damage at all, or similar concerns, it probably is a poor fit. Skilled VirGen players (or those running the right Fire counters themselves) won’t care about Reshiram at all; the unprepared (in mind or deck) can slam right into it and you might take two to four Prizes per Reshiram.

If your using Garbo and Laser/Bank that should do the trick, but if you don’t use Garbo, ditch laser/bank and add more consistency cards.

Has anyone tried to make a Landorus/Seismitoad deck?

Considering what @themiraclemeat has put, I would say yes.

Here is my list:

3 Landorus EX
3 Mewtwo EX
2 Lucario EX
2 Trubbish
2 Garbodor
1-1 Beartic

4 Strong Energy
4 DCE
4 Fighting Energy

1 Computer Search
1 Professors Letter
3 Ultra Ball
4 Hypnotoxic Laser
2 Switch
3 Muscle Band
3 Float Stone

4 Juniper
4 N
2 Shauna
1 Korrina
1 Skyla
1 Lysandre

2 Virbank City Gym

TOTAL EXTRA SPACE: 2
If anyone would help me out on which 2 cards would be best to put in this deck, I’d greatly appreciate it :smile:
I was thinking along the lines of adding an extra line of a beartic. Or 2 Hawlucha. Or 1 Hawlucha and 1 Normal Landorus. Or 1 Hawlucha and 1 extra Korrina or Skyla. Speaking of Korrina and Skyla, I don’t know if I should include both of them, but when I was testing, sometimes I needed Korrina for the extra fighting pokemon, and sometimes I needed a supporter in my hand.

I didn’t explain it well enough I geuss. Imo an ultra ball, juniper, energy and pokemon start is the best (4 cards, can still change if that is 2 pokemon instead of 1) 3 of any card, discarded, draw 7 (so you went through 14 cards, N instead of juniper 13, I think the possibility of getting 5 cards in 13-14 cards is very likely.

Why would a virgen player t2 red signal the landy, but more importantly why would I ever consider attacking with the landy when mewtwo would be a 10 times better option (attaché an energy hit for 100 ko, ko virizion, bring up active genesect with plasma energy on it? looks at the player and says thank you for the lead)

Your right I do like to think of the better case scenario so I can always think of achieving that in a game, strategy is not hard to achieve with consistency.

@yoyos

How much work have you done with statistics? Asking because for all I know you’re better at it than I am.

I mean it, I found the course very difficult and mostly remember enough to know that statistics are hard and easily misunderstood. I mean, just to calculate the odds of opening with any one card, you have to factor in your total opening hand size (seven, as I am treating “opening” hand as separate from “your hand on your first turn”). You can calculate the odds for taking all seven at once or for taking one out of 60 then one out of 59 etc. until you’ve taken your last card…

…and if you whiff on a Pokémon, it doesn’t count even if you do get that one (non-Basic Pokémon) card for which you were trying. Once we start working in the effects of actions on your opening turn, it gets even more difficult.

So in a non-technical manner… five “specific” cards will vary depending upon how many of each card you open with. The scenario you presented was pretty specific as well. Going through your list of requirements:

  1. You going first.
  2. Mewtwo-EX as your Active.
  3. You get a… Landorus-EX.
  4. Same for getting a Trubbish
  5. … and a source of [F] Energy.
  6. Your opponent opened with a Virizion-EX.
  7. Your opponent gets a Grass Energy.
  8. Your opponent attaches said Energy to Virizion-EX
  9. …and passes.
  10. You get a Garbodor and Evolve into it.
  11. You get and attach a Muscle Band to Mewtwo-EX.
  12. You get and attach a Double Colorless Energy to Mewtwo-EX and attack.
  13. Your opponent gets a second Energy.
  14. Your opponent attaches it to Virizion-EX.
  15. Your opponent attacks Mewtwo-EX.
  16. Second Landorus-EX.
  17. Second source of [F] Energy to that second Landorus-EX.
  18. A tool to… Trubbish? You don’t mention a second one, so I will assume you meant Garbodor that your original Trubbish already Evolved into. Then you attack Virizion-EX for the KO.
  19. Your opponent has a Genesect-EX in play…
  20. …and promotes it even though obvious trap is obvious by this point.
  21. Opponent does not choose to take out Garbodor (or anything else you might have in play).
  22. Opponent does not force a Landorus-EX up front to OHKO with G-Booster (dropping down to a single Energy would mean a Mewtwo-EX with [CCCC] attached, as implied, would only score 120 points of damage. Even with Hypnotoxic Laser and Virbank City Gym, you won’t hit your “revenge OHKO” total of 170… or did I miscount?
  23. Opponent does not hit you with N to drop you down to four cards, or play anything else that could potentially mess with your set-up, like following up Startling Megaphone with another Virizion-EX to the field. Don’t forget if Starling Megaphone ends up being used, all your Pokémon (and not just Garbodor) lose Tools.
  24. Whatever your opponent’s reaction, you have another source of [F] Energy available to attach or a Double Colorless Energy. Not sure how to count that you might need a second Muscle Band.
  25. Hypnotoxic Laser
  26. Virbank City Gym and attack with a Hammerhead for a maximum of

+30 (Base Damage of attack)
+30 Strong Energy #1
+30 *Strong Energy #2
+20 Muscle Band

110 points total
+10 (damage counter from Poison via Laser)
+20 (bonus damage counters from Virbank)

140 effective points of damage

Yes, one more turn will mean another 3 damage counters… if your opponent can do nothing to counter it. If that is a part of your plan then that’s item #27, and if not go ahead and let me know where I goofed. ^^ Regardless, your plan of attack requires over two dozen events occur; none of them guaranteed even if multiple are probable. Some may have multiple options, but what you need for those (the double Strong Energy) makes things less likely to work out as compared to being able to use a Fighting Energy, a Strong Energy or even a Rainbow Energy (if your deck runs such a thing). For anyone really going through this, note that somethings which are “givens” because you’re in control are not when its the opponent’s turn; you control attaching an Energy and attacking, but for your opponent that is two separate things.

When you compare scenarios, it needs to be “Like Versus Like”. You compare single cards to single cards, similarly involved combos to similarly involved combos, and decks versus decks. You’re using such a developed combo and based on later comments, assuming the rest of the deck’s infrastructure which means we move into “deck versus deck” territory. You’ve got to worry about things like an opponent running Beartic and as soon as they see Landorus-EX (you wanted to play one on your first turn) they decide to build it into of Genesect-EX. Using Virizion-EX to accelerate to Beartic instead of Genesect-EX means they could still use Startling Megaphone to flip Abilities back “on”, then drop a Plasma Energy onto Genesect-EX to Red Signal, and one of your Landorus-EX goes down in one shot.

Yes, that “counter” involves assumptions as well: you allowed them for your example, so they are fair game here. VirGen decks also are kind of famous for how they have so much room to work with; they can surprise you with unexpected things like Energy Switch. Not even just a lone TecH copy but possibly two, three or even a full four. Suddenly a Switch into a fresh Virizion-EX or surprise Mewtwo-EX is followed by an Energy Switch and a manual Energy attachment and now the “fresh” one is what is attacking Mewtwo-EX.

I also left out one more assumption that is dangerous; your opponent’s skill level. One of the almost paradoxical aspects of the game is that sometimes a player’s lack of skill or bad deck build costs them the tournament but earns them a few wins. They keep doing the unexpected and while overall their odds of winning are lower, for key match-ups that require everyone “stick to the script” it can really upset things.

TL;DR: I am mostly using this as a summary as this post is quite long. I am glad you realized your explanation was confusing… but even apart from that your case isn’t very compelling because there is just so much that seems assumed.

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Everyone is saying garbodor LTR, I only have one from LT can I use the ones from dragons exalted? Also I feel that malamar ex would be in this deck just to counter Mewtwo and at least one mega lucario because of pyroar and it’s stupid that people are thinking to use one hawlucha over 2 landorus holographic. But I’m stupid so someone tell me why hawlucha is worth a spot I mean come on its atrocious